European Finals.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:01 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:51 pm
No. We scored but it handed them the midfield and they were always then going to dominate over 90 which they did. And eventually scored. It was Croatia all over again.

And no they weren't the options. You play Sancho (or more likely Saka) and put Mount in there.

"Throwing tactics out" is exactly why we didn't win.

There very strong in the middle, we asked two to play against a very good three. They're relatively weak up top, we had an extra unnecessary body. Not only that, Jorginho is a top player of you give him time, but you can get after him, he's not quick strong or athletic, but he was always free because they had an extra man.

Even at the start of extra time when we were matched shaped we controlled the game.

You're absolutely right that if we defended a set piece better we might have won the game. We're a good side, and it's fine margins. We might have won it on pens. If we'd played 433 we might have lost. Football isn't a game where you put the inputs in and you get a settled response. All you can do as a manager before a game is set up to give yourself the best chance of winning X games out of a hundred, and then you hope the players perform and it goes your way.

IMO Southgate didn't do that. Match Italy in midfield and we win that game a lot more than we lose. Play the way he did and we lose more than we win.
Mount did play in there a lot and Sterling went further forward. The idea that putting either Mount or Sancho in there was going to help though is Owen Coyle levels of delusion. Italy had three centre mids better than any three we had. Rice and Phillips ran through walls as ever but quality told. Italy sat back for penalties let’s not kid ourselves of anything else.

I think tactics are often overplayed. If we had a proper midfield player we’d have won. Or been far more likely to. As it is we came close playing two hard working but pretty limited players in there. For twenty five minutes our formation had them bamboozled and then they changed. Southgate could have matched it then and possibly would in hindsight. I still think Italy would have been dominant.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:20 pm

Mount came in there but it was too late. Kane did the same thing. It was reactive to getting overrun but meant Italy had quality possession all the time. They weren't in there when you have the chance to win in. Instead they retreated and we camped in our own half. You had no chance of getting pressure on the ball set up the way we were. At the level *I* play at you get overrun 2v3 in there. It was suicide doing it against Verratti and Jorginho.

And that's absolute bollocks. Playing two against three in midfield and getting overrun is an art that useless prick mastered.

Some people overplay tactics, you're underplaying them.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:38 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:20 pm
Mount came in there but it was too late. Kane did the same thing. It was reactive to getting overrun but meant Italy had quality possession all the time. They weren't in there when you have the chance to win in. Instead they retreated and we camped in our own half. You had no chance of getting pressure on the ball set up the way we were. At the level *I* play at you get overrun 2v3 in there. It was suicide doing it against Verratti and Jorginho.

And that's absolute bollocks. Playing two against three in midfield and getting overrun is an art that useless prick mastered.

Some people overplay tactics, you're underplaying them.
I’m saying we didn’t have a third midfield player who would have made a difference. That’s not controversial. We needed one who would have disrupted the Italian triangles. Mount wasn’t doing that. Neither was Sancho and Henderson played like a poor mans Andrew Tutte. It was our weak area all tournament but I think in the final it was the first time we had more work in our legs than the opposition. And that might have told most.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Prufrock » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:13 pm

It is controversial.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by Mar » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:02 pm

I'd argue for it being controversial. Surely an extra man would've at least added extra pressure, regardless of the quality of that pressure.

Seems like the reality of not taking enough central midfielders ended up coming to fruition as we were left with Henderson and Bellingham as pretty much our only central midfield option on the bench. Given Bellingham's youth I suspect he was hardly one to be trusted without enough game time.

I would've suspected that Grealish and Mount would've been able to fill those midfield roles.

I suspect the addition of White instead of Ward-Prowse didn't help.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:25 am

Mar wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:02 pm
I'd argue for it being controversial. Surely an extra man would've at least added extra pressure, regardless of the quality of that pressure.

Seems like the reality of not taking enough central midfielders ended up coming to fruition as we were left with Henderson and Bellingham as pretty much our only central midfield option on the bench. Given Bellingham's youth I suspect he was hardly one to be trusted without enough game time.

I would've suspected that Grealish and Mount would've been able to fill those midfield roles.

I suspect the addition of White instead of Ward-Prowse didn't help.
Mount did tuck into midfield against Italy. I thought Mount was pretty rubbish all tournament to be honest. Not sure what he added. Grealish - I'd liked to have seen him in midfield but its obvious Southgate didn't believe he had the work rate to really be sustainable and I'm not sure when he came on we saw any evidence to suggest Southgate was wrong either.

For me managers are often criticised for tactical stuff when in reality they are just limited by what's available. A club manager can be criticised given they've usually built the team and therefore if it doesn't work they are at fault. But international football - Southgate caught Italy out for 20 minutes when we were dominant. They readjusted and we ended up in a what the kids irritatingly call a 'low block' but what I'd call men behind the ball. Italy were dominant but didn't exactly rip us to shreds. But for a flaky corner we'd have won and been the first team since 66 and all that. Southgate would be hailed a genius for tactically nullifying an Italian side that were the best around.


The players mentioned - and likes of Ward-Prowse for White seem pretty good calls now and I'm sure JWP would have been more use - would he have made a difference against Italy? I somehow doubt it. We lacked quality in midfield it was obvious from the start. We found a way to play with that limitation but when coming up against 3 world class players we struggled even when we matched them up. I do think a fit Henderson or even just an extra 24 hours rest tips the balance. But we played the best international side around took them all the way and in reality we should have won on penalties given they missed 2. We didn't but I'm very unconvinced changing the manager would have fixed any of those problems. England have been through a lot of managers and they've all been failures - and I suspect not because of their ability. International management is mainly about the ability to create a strong spirit in the team and quickly. In my lifetime Sir Bobby, El Tel and Gareth are the only ones who seem to have managed to really bring a group together. Perhaps its a fluke and circumstances in each case meant that happened but still.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by Mar » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:05 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:25 am
Mar wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:02 pm
I'd argue for it being controversial. Surely an extra man would've at least added extra pressure, regardless of the quality of that pressure.

Seems like the reality of not taking enough central midfielders ended up coming to fruition as we were left with Henderson and Bellingham as pretty much our only central midfield option on the bench. Given Bellingham's youth I suspect he was hardly one to be trusted without enough game time.

I would've suspected that Grealish and Mount would've been able to fill those midfield roles.

I suspect the addition of White instead of Ward-Prowse didn't help.
Mount did tuck into midfield against Italy. I thought Mount was pretty rubbish all tournament to be honest. Not sure what he added. Grealish - I'd liked to have seen him in midfield but its obvious Southgate didn't believe he had the work rate to really be sustainable and I'm not sure when he came on we saw any evidence to suggest Southgate was wrong either.
I think i'd agree on the Grealish thing. Maybe he would've been better suited being on the pitch to frustrate Italy and win free kicks to slow down the pace of the game and give us some breathing room. Again that takes away some of the pace on the break which I suspect may have been Southgate's tactic to get behind the Italian defence.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:25 am
For me managers are often criticised for tactical stuff when in reality they are just limited by what's available. A club manager can be criticised given they've usually built the team and therefore if it doesn't work they are at fault. But international football - Southgate caught Italy out for 20 minutes when we were dominant. They readjusted and we ended up in a what the kids irritatingly call a 'low block' but what I'd call men behind the ball. Italy were dominant but didn't exactly rip us to shreds. But for a flaky corner we'd have won and been the first team since 66 and all that. Southgate would be hailed a genius for tactically nullifying an Italian side that were the best around.
Yes, very much small margins. Would've liked some changes by Southgate but I can understand the decisions he was making. It's a shame but not one where we should be ousting Southgate.
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:25 am
The players mentioned - and likes of Ward-Prowse for White seem pretty good calls now and I'm sure JWP would have been more use - would he have made a difference against Italy? I somehow doubt it. We lacked quality in midfield it was obvious from the start.
I think moving to a 5 man midfield may have had a better outcome. We struggled against them and having more players to contest the ball and make it difficult for the Italian midfield may have helped. As it stands we didn't have the options on the bench and didn't have the quality to match Italy with the 3 man midfield. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, I suspect the uncertainty around the quality Mings could provide in the tournament was probably the reason for him wanting an extra option, so I can't be overly critical of that decision either.

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Re: European Finals.

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:43 pm

Apropos of nothing European, but France got licked 4-1 by China in the Olympics. Just mentioning.
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Re: European Finals.

Post by Mar » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:43 pm
Apropos of nothing European, but France got licked 4-1 by China in the Olympics. Just mentioning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_ ... tournament

It's got it as Mexico here.

France beat South Africa 4-3. Sounds like some interesting games then.

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