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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:12 am 
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norm the jedi wrote:
How many of our current squad [ leaving aside who's at fault for their presence here]
would get in the BSA first team...

allowing for the fact that this team can't go man for man against Norwich in midfield, when they've lost both starting centre halfs! or is it halves..


Sam's first game in the Prem.

Jussi
Barness
Gudni
Whitlow
Charlton
Warhurst
Nolan
Gardner
Frandsen
Hansen
Ricketts

Not sure there's a huge lot in it to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:14 am 
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BWFC_Insane wrote:

As much as I can't stand him, I know we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players.


{sigh} - no you don't.

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:18 am 
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thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:

As much as I can't stand him, I know we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players.


{sigh} - no you don't.


Oh yes he does.

That said, I'm not sure Allardyce would have bought the same players Coyle has, with the same amount of budget.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:28 am 
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Worthy4England wrote:
thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:

As much as I can't stand him, I know we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players.


{sigh} - no you don't.


Oh yes he does.

That said, I'm not sure Allardyce would have bought the same players Coyle has, with the same amount of budget.


no - really - he doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:37 am 
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thebish wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:
thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:

As much as I can't stand him, I know we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players.


{sigh} - no you don't.


Oh yes he does.

That said, I'm not sure Allardyce would have bought the same players Coyle has, with the same amount of budget.


no - really - he doesn't.


Ohhhhhhhh yes he does.

Absolutely certain who I'd rather have managing us at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:46 am 
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thebish wrote:
PPPS - I was personally one of the people who delivered that challenge to Lawro and subsequently watched live (along with DSB) as he had his tache removed - where were you???

Lawro had a tache? :conf:


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:02 am 
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thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:
What do you reckon it is Bish? You've made a point of it not all being 4-5-1. A point overly made, but fair enough. You also said it is down to the players. Not trying hard enough, or not being good enough? Having chosen one, how is that not the managers fault.


:conf: I've said it is a combination of things - poor manager decisions - players not delivering as they could.

the manager chooses within his budget - which hasn't been great - so I'd hesitate to blame Coyle too much for the squad.

I still think the squad we have is good enough to survive - that'll be down to them AND coyle AND other clubs doing worse AND us not having too much shoite luck AND no more major injuries... - as it pretty much always is.

not really sure what your point is....

2 weeks ago it was argued that it was NOT the players - JUST the formation. My point has always been that it is just never as simple as that.

do you disagree or something?

yeah - coyle chose pratley - but at the time - even BWFCi was saying that having Pratley would mean that Holden was not such a big loss... on the budget we have you have to take gambles on players - Pratley was one - there will be others... sometimes it'll come off - sometimes it won't.

PS - not sure where you get the idea that I think Coyle is not performing poorly
PPS - saying we are opunching above our weight is NOT the same as "accepting our place"
PPPS - I was personally one of the people who delivered that challenge to Lawro and subsequently watched live (along with DSB) as he had his tache removed - where were you???


Probably at home making my own equally storming contribution to us staying up :D. I'm not sure why you seem to be be getting touchy, maybe you aren't, maybe it's understandable frustration at us doing shoite, but I'm not suggesting you care less, or are even are resigned to us going down. I'm just saying that you keep arguing against people who lay the blame solely at the door of Coyle. I'd say they are exaggerating and don't really mean it, but I know you like to be pedantic ( :mrgreen: ) so, my point is, factoring in their hyperbolic tendencies, let's say people are suggesting many factors are contributing, but the biggest, most easily identifiable, and most culpable is the poor performance of the manager. Do you agree, or do you think our Owen's cluelessness is a mere hindrance compared to our other limitations?

Either way, my point is, of course, there are many factors contributing to our shoiteness, but the most important, and the most easily influenced are down to the manager, who is consistently getting it wrong. I accept we are working on a limited budget, but so are many others. I accept injuries have played a part, but I still maintain that this group of players should be good enough to stay up.

I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting the sole and only cause of our problems was playing 4-4-2. Carried away with the hyperbole fairies. But a combination of that, and picking an immobile front-line with an out-of-form Kevin Davies and consistently taking off Muamba combined together meant the manager wasn't giving his players the best chance of victory, which ultimately is his job.

Folk have talked about the players, but no matter how you cut it, other than if our budget means we can't get good enough players, and our past performances, plus those of Norwich and Swansea show that isn't true, then that is the managers fault. He bought 'em, and he picks them. In too many cases, Robbo and SKD being the glaring examples, it has taken far too long for that to sink in.

As for Pratley, I saw quite a bit of him last year, and he looked good in that Swansea team. I like BWFCi thought he'd be a good signing. It seems pretty clear to me now that he absolutely isn't good enough for this level. Nothing wrong with the gamble, it's the keep playing him when he clearly isn't good enough that is the problem.

The comment about accepting our place wasn't aimed at you, but by the time I'd written it you'd posted something that made it look like it was. Some folk have talked about laws of averages, and the inevitability of it all in a fashion that evokes meek surrender. I don't even accept we are 'punching above our weight'. Historically we are (I think) 12th in the all time table. I'd be very surprised if our income wasn't bigger than Wigan, Norwich, Swansea, similar to Wolves. Bigger than Fulham, QPR and probably Stoke (though they all have benefactors). No one has a right to a place in the top flight, but after this long we should have lost the feeling of being lucky to be here!

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:19 am 
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Also 'Motty' wants taking out the back and shooting through the head with a bolt gun. The doddery old biased cnut. Oooohed with glee as Lampard went through before commenting that he could have gone down there and got a penalty. Cut to Pratley being upended by Essien (difficult one for the ref- but guaranteed it would have gone the other way had it been Steiner on Ream say- though seemed fairly conclusive there was a nick on him on the replay) and he comments disapprovingly that he went down too easily. Then almost wanked himself into an early grave when Lampard scored. Shove your sheepskin coat down your neck.

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:29 am 
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for the record i think going 442 at norwich could of worked...with a centre mid of muamba and nrc. without em both there simeon jackson and wes fecking hoolahan ran riot! wes hoolahan ffs!

so 442/451 not the sole reason, but at least playing 451 means (1)muamba and (2) no donkey davies (kev)


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:47 am 
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norm the jedi wrote:
officer_dibble wrote:
so do you think that squad wise teams like norwich, swansea wiggin, wba, fulham are all a different class to us norm?

I hear and agree with some of what you are saying but in my viee this squad of players even with our injuries is good enough to survive.

Which makes me look at captain coyle and first mate steve davis and anyone else responsible for organising ping pong on a weekday.


I think Norwich and Swansea are as we were 10 years ago - the old above their weight chestnut - and potentially their managers are better..
Whether they would manage our squads better is debatable - I doubt it personally clearly I'm on me own there.. Wiggin are where we are imv
WBA and Fulham have better squads than ours and in Fulhams case more cash..
I'd guess all the above make more on the gate than us and have less debt and given the choice of us and Wiggin or one of the others as a transfer destination I'm guessing we're struggling..
Based on what I have watched this season we aren't good enough - we're better at 4-5-1 or similar and Coyles insistence on 4-4-2 may have cost us .. but not enough to make that much difference.. It seems that we don't have the resources to suffer the loss of Elmander, Sturridge, Lee, Holden and SKD ..
We don't have anywhere near the resources to replace like for like, Then we've had the luck that relegated teams have.. on other injuries - red cards, freak goals etc..
We may still sneak out but it delays the inevitable imv because the prem is about how much cash you have for the most part.. and gradually all the loopholes we exploited to make silk from sows have been closed or others are wise and cutting the options..
We may be where we are because Coyle bought players who weren't good enough..
I'd question whether we had the resources or will to get enough players of sufficient quality to repair the team..
So yeah Coyle out....
New Messiah apply above.. but I don't think it will make that much difference..


There's a lot thats true there. I don't think coyle brought in eagles or pratley as anything more than squad players and Tuncay was a short notice elastoplast when CYL got injured.The failure of Holden to get fit and the loss of CYL close to the window has made those signings look like bigger mistakes than they would have if Holden had got fit and CYL hadnt got injured.
Today or next week isnt the time to judge things.Apart from picking Pratley I cant see what more coyle could have done today with what he had available.We looked reasonably organised first half but NRC had an off day and kept giving them the ball back.
The goal just after half time was messy and pivotal obviously(at least coyle didnt go gung ho as he has in the past),Drogba's should have been cleared off the line but it was a good cross and he got up well(not really a matter of poor marking,he was just stronger than riketts). The third,well surely one of our midfielders should be tracking Lampard,not sure it can be blamed on Ream.
Miyaichi and Tuncay worked hard(I cant see that eagles or petrov would have done better going forward and I'm certain theyd have done less defensively)
Ngog and Myaichi would have been less isolated had Tuncay played in Mavis position and maybe as a result we could have offered more threat but it s just a maybe.
At the end of the day no matter what choices coyle made today the number of players having off days with the ball would ultimately have seen us lose. For once it wasnt coyle's tactics(except pratley) or substitutions(except Pratley) it really was the performance of the players. No matter how many times we were gifted the ball we immediately gifted it back.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:56 am 
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The basics of football, passing and ball control, let us down seriously yesterday. We just gave the ball away too often and were much to slow in controlling the ball such that time and again Chelsea players just nipped in that but quicker and stole it from us.

The clear difference between the teams (apart from the cost of the players) was speed of thought, fluid movement, ball control and accuracy of passing. Our lot looked like a very poor Championship side and when we do go down we will struggle to compete and may well be in another relegation fight next season.

Coyle does seem to be tactically naive but as siad above the players can't hack it then there isn't a lot he can do. Ryo looked good on the ball at times mind but Reo just can't pass for toffee and Pratley well enough said.

Cahill looked excellent and will blossom playing with such better players, future England Captain for me. Mind, we never put any pressure on him.

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:22 am 
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Worthy4England wrote:
thebish wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:
thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:

As much as I can't stand him, I know we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players.


{sigh} - no you don't.


Oh yes he does.

That said, I'm not sure Allardyce would have bought the same players Coyle has, with the same amount of budget.


no - really - he doesn't.


Ohhhhhhhh yes he does.

Absolutely certain who I'd rather have managing us at the moment.


maybe so - but that's an entirely different question than "KNOWING" we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players.

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:51 am 
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Jesus Christ bish you're being a bit pedantic here. I think the opinion he was merely offering was that we wouldn't be in this position under Allardyce. Of course no one truly knows but he's offering his opinion. Its not like we're on a football forum or something.......

BWFC_Insane wrote:
And I'll bet my mortgage that if our current manager hadn't played for us, and wasn't quite such a big self promoter that all those bleating how 'it's not Coyles fault' would be screaming for him to be sacked like they were with our previous two bosses.

Cos he used to play for us and is a nice bloke is not a reason to let him get away with incompetence and destruction of the last 11 years hard work.

As much as I can't stand him, I know we'd not be in this position were Allardyce managing us with the same players. We'd be playing god awful football, but we'd be scrapping our way to points. And when you aren't flush with money, and not one of the big boys in the league, that is what you must do. Megson for all his faults knew it. He might have fallen out with half the playing staff and cut his nose of to spite his face, but he knew you had to scrap as Bolton.

Lee didnt know it and Coyle doesn't seem to either.

I give Coyle credit for raising confidence when he came here and putting smiles back on players faces, that were lost under the previous manager. He did that gave some confidence and that was enough. But it's not always going to be enough, sometimes you have to accept you're in a right scrap and show some street savvy. Thats what we are really lacking.

Even just 4 extra points would give us a good chance from where we are. We've thrown away a lot more than that already chasing football ideals, when we should be trying to be that nasty side that is well organised and scores from set pieces......


Coyle is a clueless pleb that will probably take us down. His overall record at the club is worse than Megsons and the football isn't much better(if at all). This playing football crap is such a myth its drving me insane, we've been awful to watch for a while now. There is no question in my mind that his reputation as a cult hero has prolonged his career here. He's a likeable bloke but an incompetent manager.

The problem really lies with us finding managers that have some "association" with the club. Believe it or not managing a Barclays Premier League club is a desirable position for football managers across the globe. So why are we hiring no hopers like Coyle. There has to be someone plying their trade in Ligue 1 or Bundesliga that can do a better job. Hell even lesser leagues. Someone like Wenger was unheard of before he came to Arsenal, I believe he was coaching in Japan at the time. Is it time for our next appointment to be a foreign manager? If you look at the recent Wolves debacle there really seems to be a dearth of good British managers.

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:56 am 
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Prufrock wrote:
thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:
What do you reckon it is Bish? You've made a point of it not all being 4-5-1. A point overly made, but fair enough. You also said it is down to the players. Not trying hard enough, or not being good enough? Having chosen one, how is that not the managers fault.


:conf: I've said it is a combination of things - poor manager decisions - players not delivering as they could.

the manager chooses within his budget - which hasn't been great - so I'd hesitate to blame Coyle too much for the squad.

I still think the squad we have is good enough to survive - that'll be down to them AND coyle AND other clubs doing worse AND us not having too much shoite luck AND no more major injuries... - as it pretty much always is.

not really sure what your point is....

2 weeks ago it was argued that it was NOT the players - JUST the formation. My point has always been that it is just never as simple as that.

do you disagree or something?

yeah - coyle chose pratley - but at the time - even BWFCi was saying that having Pratley would mean that Holden was not such a big loss... on the budget we have you have to take gambles on players - Pratley was one - there will be others... sometimes it'll come off - sometimes it won't.

PS - not sure where you get the idea that I think Coyle is not performing poorly
PPS - saying we are opunching above our weight is NOT the same as "accepting our place"
PPPS - I was personally one of the people who delivered that challenge to Lawro and subsequently watched live (along with DSB) as he had his tache removed - where were you???


Probably at home making my own equally storming contribution to us staying up :D. I'm not sure why you seem to be be getting touchy, maybe you aren't, maybe it's understandable frustration at us doing shoite, but I'm not suggesting you care less, or are even are resigned to us going down. I'm just saying that you keep arguing against people who lay the blame solely at the door of Coyle. I'd say they are exaggerating and don't really mean it, but I know you like to be pedantic ( :mrgreen: ) so, my point is, factoring in their hyperbolic tendencies, let's say people are suggesting many factors are contributing, but the biggest, most easily identifiable, and most culpable is the poor performance of the manager. Do you agree, or do you think our Owen's cluelessness is a mere hindrance compared to our other limitations?

Either way, my point is, of course, there are many factors contributing to our shoiteness, but the most important, and the most easily influenced are down to the manager, who is consistently getting it wrong. I accept we are working on a limited budget, but so are many others. I accept injuries have played a part, but I still maintain that this group of players should be good enough to stay up.

I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting the sole and only cause of our problems was playing 4-4-2. Carried away with the hyperbole fairies. But a combination of that, and picking an immobile front-line with an out-of-form Kevin Davies and consistently taking off Muamba combined together meant the manager wasn't giving his players the best chance of victory, which ultimately is his job.

Folk have talked about the players, but no matter how you cut it, other than if our budget means we can't get good enough players, and our past performances, plus those of Norwich and Swansea show that isn't true, then that is the managers fault. He bought 'em, and he picks them. In too many cases, Robbo and SKD being the glaring examples, it has taken far too long for that to sink in.

As for Pratley, I saw quite a bit of him last year, and he looked good in that Swansea team. I like BWFCi thought he'd be a good signing. It seems pretty clear to me now that he absolutely isn't good enough for this level. Nothing wrong with the gamble, it's the keep playing him when he clearly isn't good enough that is the problem.

The comment about accepting our place wasn't aimed at you, but by the time I'd written it you'd posted something that made it look like it was. Some folk have talked about laws of averages, and the inevitability of it all in a fashion that evokes meek surrender. I don't even accept we are 'punching above our weight'. Historically we are (I think) 12th in the all time table. I'd be very surprised if our income wasn't bigger than Wigan, Norwich, Swansea, similar to Wolves. Bigger than Fulham, QPR and probably Stoke (though they all have benefactors). No one has a right to a place in the top flight, but after this long we should have lost the feeling of being lucky to be here!


That's most of the point.

Last published Accounts, we were about 14th in terms of wage bill (£46m) - ahead of Birmingham (£38m), Blackpool (£12m), Stoke (£45m), West Brom (£23m), Wigan (£39m) and Wolves (£30m)

Very near by Blackburn and Newcastle (£47m), Fulham (£49m). So we're actually in the realms of about "half-way" up the table.

So we lose Blackpool and Brum (we also lost Wet Spam, but they were at £56m), and replace with QPR, Swansea and Norwich - QPR reported as £46.2m - same as us, Swansea was at £7m and Norwich were about £12m. I doubt Swansea and Norwich have suddenly got nosebleeds and are now paying more in wages.

So on wages, we're still going to be about half way somewhere maybe 10th to 14th. I'd accept 14th for the sake of the debate.

On transfers, did anyone spot Blackburn, Stoke, West Brom, Wigan, Wolves, Fulham, Swansea or Norwich shelling out large transfer funds the last couple of seasons? Stoke have shelled out, but the others?

So all this fooking drama about all the clubs being way better off than us is tosh, when we consider what we're actually spending. We're still spending and investing to the level of a Club that's lower-mid table and certainly on investment should not be accepting 19th fooking place.

Bad management, poor transfers, a system that changes either formation or personnel by the week, trying to play passing football with Darren Pratley.

Owen Coyle Je accuse.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:57 am 
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please!!!!
j'accuse!

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:03 am 
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Well we could have put the assistant in charge I guess.It's too late for coyle out now.lets see what happens after the next 4 games but even so he's here till the summer.Can only get behind the team regardless.There's nothing else to do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:07 am 
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Ianmooreslovechild wrote:
Well we could have put the assistant in charge I guess.It's too late for coyle out now.lets see what happens after the next 4 games but even so he's here till the summer.Can only get behind the team regardless.There's nothing else to do.


I honestly think I dislike Coyle just as much as Megson now, both are imho having the same effect of ruining BWFC only Coyle may take it one degree worse! If we drop Gartside should go too!

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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:09 am 
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Hoboh wrote:
Ianmooreslovechild wrote:
Well we could have put the assistant in charge I guess.It's too late for coyle out now.lets see what happens after the next 4 games but even so he's here till the summer.Can only get behind the team regardless.There's nothing else to do.


I honestly think I dislike Coyle just as much as Megson now, both are imho having the same effect of ruining BWFC only Coyle may take it one degree worse! If we drop Gartside should go too!


Snap. I even think Megson would do a better job of keeping this lot up. Seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:09 am 
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lovethesmellofnapalm wrote:
please!!!!
j'accuse!

:D

It's never too late.

I wouldn't be thinking of renewing his contract at the end of the season either...


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 Post subject: Re: The Battle of Stamford Bridge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:21 am 
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Hoboh wrote:
Ianmooreslovechild wrote:
Well we could have put the assistant in charge I guess.It's too late for coyle out now.lets see what happens after the next 4 games but even so he's here till the summer.Can only get behind the team regardless.There's nothing else to do.


I honestly think I dislike Coyle just as much as Megson now, both are imho having the same effect of ruining BWFC only Coyle may take it one degree worse! If we drop Gartside should go too!


I totally understand that but what the feck we're stuck with this until the summer. I thought coyle tried to do things right yesterday except for playing pratley in a position were Tuncay might have been more effective. There' sno point harking back to Big Sam,he left as he knew he'd taken the club as far as he could and wanted a new challenge. Megson was a tosser who did a competent job,coyle is a nice guy doing the reverse. As for Gartside hasnt he been chairman through the most successful period in the clubs recent history? The appointments made since Allardyce all looked reasonable at the time including sammy Lee.Coyle looked like a stroke of genius for almost a year. I wouldnt be calling for gartside's head if we go down.We may as has been said before have to cut our cloth and at best accept that we are a yoyo sized team. It's all good and well pointing at Norwich and Swansea yes they have excellent managers and momentum but those managers will move on and the momentum will slow and eventually they will be were we are. It's the way it is for clubs of our size. Brief periods in the sun and longer periods in the shade.We've been spoiled by bucking the trend for a longer period than normal.

The type of players allardyce built our team on head for the USA and middle east these days. If he'd stayed he'd at best have achieved what he did at Blackburn. As it was the last 6 months he was here we were going backwards and less and less off his signings were working out.


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