I don't recall us having a referendum on giving nearly a trillion quid to the banks. Are you saying we should have done hobes?

Here you go Hoboh - this review of the literature on the EU's democratic deficit should keep you busy for 10 mins. http://democracy.livingreviews.org/inde ... rticle/6/9

In the meantime, it would be interesting to get Pru's views on whether the EU suffers from a democracy/legitimacy problem?

I think it depends on how you define democracy. I'm not convinced by the referendum argument. We have (I think) only ever had two referenda put to the UK as a whole, and there are plenty of issues that aren't consulted because it would be too expensive, or because the government don't think they'd get they answer they want. There are plenty of issues regarding democracy in this country itself, the sheer volume of Statutory Instruments, Lord Hailsham's 'elective dictatorship' (I'm loving Public Law ) the first past the post system itself. There are plenty of things about the EU that are 'democratic', the treaties are ratified and then passed through parliament like any other legislation, the Parliament is directly elected, and getting more powerful, the Council is made up of directly elected MP's or PM's. It also has its flaws, the power of the unelected commission for one. I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say it is 'undemocratic' though. It would also be fairly easy to democratically get rid of it if as many people as claimed actually gave a shit, but since Nigel Farage is still a pointless nobody I'm guessing they don't.

I have reservations about certain aspects, and I think you can argue certain aspects could be made more directly democratic, but I think it is way too far to call the EU 'undemocratic'.

We did in a kind of way, we had an election and people were motivated by the economic policy of the last government and got shut! Could you do this in Europe? No you couldn't, the people dictating monetary policy are the Germans, (see Greece for an example) Germany dictates the exact way the Greeks behave and create political unrest and instability in that country, do as we say or sink! Will the Germans pour cash in to rebuild that country or police to ensure order? Will they hell its all about protecting their idea of what European fiscal policy should be, sod the natives. Europe will eventually fail individual member states or more to the point the people of these states will only tolerate so much but at what cost? The USA gets away with a federal government because it grew up with far fewer ethnic groups or history that is prevalent throughout Europe, the old USSR did it by sheer brutality and that didn't last either.
Which ever way you look at it the EU is going to suck the life blood out of individual states by its continuing thirst for growth and power if it continues ours will be a voice in the wilderness.
If the EU/IMF want to sort out the "Euro" problems it should warn these financial institutions that should they keep playing in politics as they are by messing with the loan rates that should they "cock up" as seems inevitable at some point they will get no help what so ever, it may calm these finical markets some what.

I remeber seeing the Daily Express headline the other day something along the lines of "Brussels loons ban water cos its bad for us".

Germany isn't like Greece. Whoever, or whatever, told you that was lying. What Germany does have is a consistently stronger economy than us, a higher GDP, a better productivity rate, and might I add from personal experience, a better work rate. Strangely enough, they can combine all thses things with a very great deal of social responsibility woven in to the fabric of their society. Sounds like a wonderful thing to aspire to to me.

I find it strange that when Germany was run by a genocidal maniac the right in this country were all for them, but now they've sorted their act out they don't seem interested.

I don't recall saying they were
I said the Germans are dictating or trying to dictate to the likes of Greece how they run their country by fiscal threat against the people of Greece's will! I think all the demos there back this up and what democratic rights do the Greek people have in the face of the mighty German led EU? None, thats my point, so much for a democratic Europe! Spain next? Will the Germans finally size control of Majorca as part of a dictated bail out? Europe should have stuck to the market theme nowt else.
As for a stronger GDP etc you should not nor should they forget who set them up for this, mainly us and uncle Sam, don't forget either that money was pumped into Germany all the way through the cold war because it was literally "the front Line" so much so that the US service personel we were with had a "life expectancy" of 8 mins, just enough time to make sure all their planes got in the air in the event of a full scale East/West conflict. Sure there was strict control over them after starting two world wars, you would expect that but to think it was some great German miricle is pushing it a bit.

** Forgot to add this was pre the fall of the Berlin wall

It might have been Uncle Sam, it most certainly, absolutely positively 100% wasn't us.

Indeed, you might want to google the Marshall Plan. Which was a lifetime ago. Perhaps Cameron should just have said to Sarkozy "remember Waterloo eh Frenchie, just watch yourself"?

I'll save you the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan#Expenditures

Just remind me when the last time was, that our country elected a Government with more people voting for it than against it?

Are you recommending some sort of PR voting system, to redress this flaw in our undemocratic electoral process?

Fook me Worthy I thought you would have got this one!!!
Apathy is the fault of the individual voter but you have a chance to vote, something you don't get in Europe with the shady "back room boys" I think we should have some form of PR to be more inclusive of others views but even this is tricky when folk would be up in arms about seats for the bnp type partys and maybe some muslim partys. Which ever way you look at it at least we have a major say in dumping our leaders or party of government, not something that happens in Europe. Euro MP's are fairly toothless annimals

Still, when was the last time this country elected for a Government with more people voting for it than against it, never mind a majority of the population. In 2005 Labour won a majority after being voted for by 22% of the electorate. Explain how that is 'democratic'?

But the point still stands. Someone somewhere will pass legislation, set taxes etc. Etc. We generally have little to zero influence as to how it pans out, even if we happened to cast a vote that helped get rid of one unaccountable set of people and replaced them with another set. Within the UK of course, plenty of influence is exerted by all those top elected Civil Servants. I also don't recall voting for the Governor of the Bank of England or any of his group of advisors etc.

The politicians clearly are not doing their jobs right in that case and we should press them to put it right! Anyways if the gov of the bank of England cocks up he would be history anyway