Jolly good. How are we paying for all this then?

the trick, it appears, is to lose the war >> appear contrite >> get the winners to pay for your restructuring >>

I know it works.

Interesting to see that when she's in trouble she's not as chummy as she would like to seem. Apparently wants to change the constitution .... or whatever they pretend it was ... and NOT have any sovereign states go around holding nasty referenda or anything.

Those who still have elected heads that is.

There'd be a lynching or three in the UK if that occured.

Well we've got step one of plunging ourselves into financial armageddon off to a tee.

Now all we have to do is to pretend the EDL have a legitimate grievance whilst ennacting isolationist policies and we're halfway there. I love it when a plan comes together.

Its comfortingly always 1945 in Dailymailland, isn't it?

The Euro was always ill conveived and most certainly ill controlled. The current issues were bound to arise once they began breaking the very rules they arranged as it was set up.

The CONTROLLED exit of currencies that should never have been allowed into it in the first palce is required before they have to leave in an uncontrolled way.

The EEC was a good idea, it still is. The unification of Europe by the back door never was. The moment the EEC expanded to 11, 13 then 27 or so nations the chances of that succeeding were zero.

Pretending a single currency, across 17 disparate nations without fiscal singularity was always a fraud. Fiscal singularity can only come about with far greater political unity. A unity many people, even in compliant nations, do not want.

The democratic voice being shouted down because it doesn't suit will always .... in the end .... bring a reaction. To repel those concerns by accusing those who espose them of being a bit dim, zenophobic or downright repugnant is unreasonable.

Remember the benefits of the Euro to your average guy on the street were sold almost solely on the basis of not having to pop to Thomas Cook's when they were going on holiday. The authorities took great steps to avoid explaining the bigger impacts and requirements. They loved theidea then that Joe Public was, on average, a bit dim.

To take the current crisis as an excuse to try & tighten that 'club' is illegitimate and, even if you agree with it in principle, cannot succeed until the rules are re-established and all the nations within it are fulfilling the requirements.

Greece, Italy, Portugal & Spain .... add Belgium to that btw .... have never had economies fit for joining the Euro. Now even France & Holland are being chall;enged. The current economic mess will be a mess whatever tinkering is done. So far half-hearted statements and weak promises are being shown to be precisely that, but half-hearted statements are what the EU specialises in.

The social structures in Europe are lovely, but set against a global competitive World are unsustainable. It was either never quite understood that it's in a global market these days and it's not about France being a tad better than Holland or the UK in a particular product. The prime example of this was 10 years ago France awarding itself a 35hr week. In their own environment that was their business, but where they had to compete world-wide it was untenable.

A current German & French option is to raise taxes on Financial transactions. Given that 30% of the UK GDP arises from this market then this is a direct attack on the UK. F'cough would be a very polite response to that demand in my view.

Another would be, "tell you what Pierre, cancel the CAP & we can start talking".

Hope none of that is too racist for anyone.

Ermmm we? More like as bobo suggests its the very weak countries who flocked to join the EU gravey train and were allowed to who are responsable for this! Oh and add in these so called "market" people who are busy building their own coffins when the mess is finally sorted out and legislation and red tape hits them like a tornado.

Our GDP is closer to Italy's than either France or Germany's, who for clarities sake are both higher than ours. Indeed, it is closer to Brazil's. Who have a huge disparity between rich and poor. Is that what you would like to see here?

We can't go on kidding ourselves that we can maintain our standard of living for the majority (and that means just about everyone posting on this here forum) by having less not more Europe. We can't compete with the BRIC countries on a like-for-like footing. Its folly.

We will be giving money to the IMF to give to Europe via the back door, despite the vehement denials, because we are desperately reliable on Europe. Just like we gave money to Ireland, to save our own skin. Because we are a part of the problem. We can be a part of the solution, my homeless friend, but its going to require a real change of heart by some. Come on hoboh, I know you can do it.

Oh I could do the way we were told the common market (as it was once known) would work. Common trading policys, fair trade within the "market place" etc, it's the United State of Europe with a Fedral type Gov I'm totally against.
We, France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc will never have the same politics that suits each countries populus thats why closer intergration will never work, its fine as we are now talking about financial intergration but behind it follows the political bit, lets face it we in the North have enough problems getting the southerners to realise we exist in the UK now, what the hell would it be like if everything goes according to somes plan and everything is run from Bonn?
The way I see it I would rather remain a "little Englander" than a "minute European". Those that push for us deeper in Europe either know this or just don't see the wider picture, you could go as far as to say the current level of intergration as made a hell of a mess of Europe already and one shudders to think if we were linked closer what might happen the next time they bugger up!
I would like to see Europe return to the "common market" and possibly build a hy-brid financial system, like everyone for most day to day living works under their own currency and exchange rates along with a super Euro wide currency for busines to operate internationally with. Business is very good at adapting to change like this Governments and people are not.

But if we were linked closer we'd have a bigger say. Thats the flaw in the current argument, we're on the periphery because we choose to be there. You can't have a big say if you're a small player. Its been the problem forever. The Germans would love us to be more involved, because they believe we would balance France and add more weight to their fiscal policy arguments. It makes no sense to say Europe doesn't do enough for us, because of course it doesn't because we don't do enough to make it.

correct!!

It is (frankly) pathetic to see how our stock has fallen in Europe in this last year...

Like them or loathe them (doesn't matter either way) - Blair and Brown carried weight in Europe - their opinions were courted and sought... (Brown as a financial heavyweight... Blair as a hollywood glamourpuss)

NOBODY is asking Osborne what he things - he has NOTHING significant to say at the G20 or in Europe - and Cameron is openly ridiculed...

we are now simply a laughing stock...

Cameron is forced to desperately pretend that he agrees with Merckel about measures for recovery in the Euro-zone when he doesn't - just to make it look as if he is given a little bit of attention by someone whose opinion counts...

it's pathetic....

Whilst I agree on one level, re: the influence of Blair and Brown, the downside is that some people listened to Brown too much. However, it would be a little hypocritical to argue that its the fault of Europe that our Chancellor and then Prime Minister got some stuff wrong and therefore Europe must be at fault. It would also be a little silly to suggest that either were wholly responsible for the mess we're in..they were contributers like many, many others.

I might also add that the reason they were taken seriously was because they had a long term ambition of joining the Euro. They weren't alone, if you recall Hesseltine, Clarke (and I believe in private, much to the chagrin of the Thatcherites, Major and Lamont) supported the idea of us being closer to Europe and joining the Euro. Its no surprise the money markets smashed us out of the ERM. They had the most to lose. Again, it would be silly to simply argue that there was no hidden agenda, because it certainly wasn't an economic fait accompli.

I would not be entirely surprised if Cameron and Osborne eventually take us into the euro, much like it was Thatcher who signed up to Maastricht. It would be fun to watch the rabid backbenchers if they did, anyway!

Person who rid us of most Grammar Schools and oversaw the creation or the most Comprehensives?

Its a funny old world is politics. They might not have a choice in a couple of years time.

Depends who's doing the sums. I was quite disturbed to read recently that when Healey had to go cap in hand to the IMF, the Treasury figures had been so manipulated, that far from being in the shit, our actual PSBR was lower than Germany's, at the time the world's strongest economy. Which is the reason why the country was able to pay it off so quickly. But the political damage had been done. Its pretty much accepted now that it was a malicious ploy by certain factions within the civil service. Quite frightening that people are willing to play stunts like that with a nations wellbeing.

How economics works has now got too baffling for me (I did it at A level and then several short courses in Marxist economics - and have on shelf of shame a couple of recent publications on the current crises of capitalism from a Marxist perspective - the likelihood of reading them in the near future is minimal. I guess I must think I'm a good and serious person if I intend to...)...

But... Europe has always seemed an attractive and beguiling place to me... For its art, and culture, and philosophical disputes, and its revolutions, and the main squares in all its major cities (with the exception of amsterdam), and its music and - its sunshine and shadow, and song and dance, and its wine and food (and especially garlic)...

And feel that someone should take hoboh gently by the hand and lead him to Barcelona... And make the poor lamb feel better about the place beyond the channel...

I actually think that city is fantastic but you Euroids really are deluded if you think closer links means a bigger say! The Germans and fench would just gagg us and dump all their rubbish here.

That's an alarming thought.

How would they gag us, what would we no longer be allowed to say, and what rubbish would they dump?

If they'd start with Nick Farage, I'd be eternally grateful.

Now then, has anyone ever considered that he's taking the piss and has the easiest job on the planet making promises he'll never ever have to see through? All part of the Brussels gravy train you see. I wonder what industry he's from and what possible motives he's have for his views?

Look at that again Bish. Then ask yourself, "did I really just type that?"

Suppose a dumbbell can be a heavy weight.